Curse

Reverend Dr · Mar 18, 2010, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

This is just a cheap lazy way to fix unused attributes. Perhaps Anet will get onto professions that actually need buffing in the next update.

The problem with buffing, is that when you buff one skill or line you are effectively nerfing every other skill and line. While there are indeed many individual skills that are terrible, several attribute lines that are lackluster, and classes that are simply less effective than others, blanket buffs to those skills/lines/classes are only going to perpetuate the cycle simply changing out one unused skill/line/class for another.

draxynnic · Mar 21, 2010, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Only if it's taken too far. There are professions that would need a LOT of buffing to even threaten to unseat the not-so-humble necromancer and spiritspammer.

Reverend Dr · Mar 21, 2010, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Except the spirit spammer was a very recent buff because the rit was underplayed.

It got buffed in, other things get moved out. The exact same problem persists, its just the class that is undesired changed.

The other side is that if you buff something, then buff everything else up to that level, you just increased the overall power of the players while not affecting the difficulty of the game itself.

Commander Kanen · Mar 21, 2010, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Leadership Spear Mastery Command,
There is only like 4 skills in Leader and Command you use,
3 in Motivation IF your using tripple para.

Paragons just need a buff.
There is a thred about it somewhere, We pretty much agreed that paragons should get simmilar buffs to the recent tactics updates. Skills that do something then do something else after x time or when they end.

(did Anet come here read our posts and buff the wrong attribute ?!)

Desert Rose · Mar 21, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Kanen

Paragons just need a buff.

Paras are the one of the last professions that currently needs a buff in PvE, simply because they still have the most powerful PvE build available: Imbagon.
First nerf the overpowered skills down to a balanced level, then buff the underpowered skills to a balanced level. If you do it the other way around you'll either achieve nothing or just create the next overpowered skill.

Targren · Mar 22, 2010, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Paras are the one of the last professions that currently needs a buff in PvE, simply because they still have the most powerful PvE build available: Imbagon.
First nerf the overpowered skills down to a balanced level, then buff the underpowered skills to a balanced level. If you do it the other way around you'll either achieve nothing or just create the next overpowered skill.

Bollocks. Claiming a class is fine because it has a single build is ridiculous. When that build is a gimmick like Imbagon, you hit ludicrous speed. Imbagon is a great addition to an all/mostly human party. Try and H/H with it and you end up with a wasted character slot, because you'd rather stab yourself in the face rather than play it.

I counter your claim that Paras do not need a buff with the following assertion: The paragon is so weak, this is considered a "great" build.

Snark Is Dead · Mar 23, 2010, 06:41 PM // 18:41

/signed

Motivation cannot be buffed for pvp. I like the idea of taking those skills and make them more Command and Leasdership oriented. It's a shame to waste 20 skills on one of the two professions with the least options of skills.

Nuclfus · Mar 29, 2010, 12:32 AM // 00:32

This idea is constructive and would greatly improve gameplay.
/signed

Regulus X · Mar 29, 2010, 02:50 AM // 02:50

At OP: Too much rework in coding. I can guarantee you that Anet would never put themselves through extensive coding just to make paragons useful again. They'll either find a more feasible [least amount of coding required] way of buffing them without making them OP'd, or they'll just leave them alone as they have been for many years now.

FoxBat · Mar 29, 2010, 03:48 AM // 03:48

My suggestion would be to change as many party-buffing shouts as reasonable back to ally-based. There is no more VoD to mess up (which is why these got changed in the first place), and it would give the paragon a niche to exponentially support minions/pets/spirits/npc-based quests/mishes.

jazilla · Mar 29, 2010, 05:54 AM // 05:54

I am glad that people are finally responding to this in a constructive way. My concern here is that an ENTIRE Attribute line is being completely unused. My alliance members would tell someone trying join our group to change their build if someone pinged anything using Motivation in PvE. A PUG would call you names til you cried if you pinged a Motivation build, and for good reason. You would be fortunate if you were even lucky enough to get in as a Paragon in the first place. I am not saying it is the best idea, it's just that something needs to be done with it to even make it usable, much less over-powered lol. I just want to use the Attribute in a meaningful way before GW2 comes out. Let's not kid ourselves either, it's not as if Paragons are making it into GW2. Might as well make them fun to play for the last year that this game is meta in the GW Universe.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 29, 2010, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Name one reason why nuking the entire line is a better idea than fixing the skills themselves, both from a gameplay aspect, and developing one.

jazilla · Mar 29, 2010, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Name one reason why nuking the entire line is a better idea than fixing the skills themselves, both from a gameplay aspect, and developing one.

I think that the Motivation Line does things that other classes do way more efficiently. A lot of the Chants etc. have 10 energy cost with 20 second recharges. They are party heals, but you can do that way more efficiently with an Ele running Self enchants and Ether Renewal and Monk Party heals. I don't believe this should be the case. Heck, you can do the same thing with a monk and BR on a Discorder. Ever run an HB Party heal Monk on a VSF? Why ever bring anything in Motivation when it isn't as good when used on a Primary Paragon as it is when I go secondary Monk on an Elementalist and do a way better job? That seems off to me.

Even if you don't like my Motiv. merge with Command/Leadership, then halve the recharge times of the Motiv shouts/chants etc. and get rid of the 1 and 2 second "cast" times for PvE. You could even cut back the healing a tad to balance it a bit. Make all of that a fun reason to play the completely unused Motivation line. That would fall more in line with Divine Favor/Healing Prayers Party heals and some of the Party Healing Spirits for Rits as well.

My take on it is that if it is the least used Attribute Line of any class in the entire game(which it is) then get rid of it. Why have it if it's useless? I would like to see it buffed; but it seems as if it's never going to happen, and it seems a waste. I don't believe Paragons will be in GW2, so what was the point?

Coast · Mar 29, 2010, 05:20 PM // 17:20

not signed, people will start qq for other professions also

vandevere · Mar 29, 2010, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

not signed, people will start qq for other professions also

And that's a legitimate reason to let the paragons languish?

QQ will happen regardless of who gets buffed or nerfed. QQ is as much a part of life here on the boards as breathing.

It's still not a justification for letting some professions go unused...

jazilla · Mar 29, 2010, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

not signed, people will start qq for other professions also

I don't believe commenting that Motivation needs a buff can be classified as QQ. PM me 5 solid Motivation Paragon builds for PvE. Solid in the way of, they are as good or better than what another profession can do that is similar.

This isn't QQ, this is fruitful discourse on the need to make this Attribute more in line with the meta.

Regulus X · Mar 30, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

not signed, people will start qq for other professions also

If he was ever "right" using this kind of logic in any given arguement, the world itself would implode!

MagmaRed · Mar 30, 2010, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I don't believe commenting that Motivation needs a buff can be classified as QQ. PM me 5 solid Motivation Paragon builds for PvE. Solid in the way of, they are as good or better than what another profession can do that is similar.

This isn't QQ, this is fruitful discourse on the need to make this Attribute more in line with the meta.

That isn't a fair thing to ask for. Why? Because not all attributes have 5 solid builds for the class that attribute is from for PvE. Example, can you show me 5 solid Water Magic builds for Elementalist for PvE? I know there are a few, using skills like Ward Against Harm and Shatterstone, but 5 different ones? Or a harder one, what about 5 Tactics builds for a Warrior, or 5 Wind Prayers builds for a Dervish, 5 Deadly Arts builds for Assassin, etc., etc., etc.

Sure, there are several that work, but you want 5 SOLID builds around 1 attribute for 1 class. Not always easy. And the replacement of 1 skill is hardly a different build. Heck, I'd be hard pressed to find 5 DIFFERENT builds for a Monk using Healing Prayers. Hybridization would allow for some of that difference, but seriously, a single attribute requirement isn't necesarily a build.

I could come up with 5 solid builds (in my opinion) for a Paragon in PvE using Motivation skills, but I doubt you would consider them Motivation builds. They would likely be a Leadership or Spear Mastery build using some Motivation skills.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 30, 2010, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I think that the Motivation Line does things that other classes do way more efficiently. A lot of the Chants etc. have 10 energy cost with 20 second recharges. They are party heals, but you can do that way more efficiently with an Ele running Self enchants and Ether Renewal and Monk Party heals. I don't believe this should be the case. Heck, you can do the same thing with a monk and BR on a Discorder. Ever run an HB Party heal Monk on a VSF? Why ever bring anything in Motivation when it isn't as good when used on a Primary Paragon as it is when I go secondary Monk on an Elementalist and do a way better job? That seems off to me.

Even if you don't like my Motiv. merge with Command/Leadership, then halve the recharge times of the Motiv shouts/chants etc. and get rid of the 1 and 2 second "cast" times for PvE. You could even cut back the healing a tad to balance it a bit. Make all of that a fun reason to play the completely unused Motivation line. That would fall more in line with Divine Favor/Healing Prayers Party heals and some of the Party Healing Spirits for Rits as well.

My take on it is that if it is the least used Attribute Line of any class in the entire game(which it is) then get rid of it. Why have it if it's useless? I would like to see it buffed; but it seems as if it's never going to happen, and it seems a waste. I don't believe Paragons will be in GW2, so what was the point?

That didn't really answer my question.

As far as my idea for Motivation If I were in charge, and numbers are rough, and this is off the top of my head here, and I'm talking in terms of PvE:

Aria of Restoration/Zeal: Triggers when Ally uses a skill that targets a foe (perhaps, or anything more widely usable),

Lyric of Purification: Lower duration to 5...10..15, triggers on next skill, Lower recharge to 12 seconds
Lyric of Zeal: "Allies gain 1...4...6 Energy the next time they lose a condition", upped recharge to 12 seconds

Zealous Anthem: lower recharge to 12(ish)

Signet of Synergy:Heals target ally for 40...88...100 If under the effect of a shout or chant. Recharge reduced to 5 seconds

Song/Ballad of Restoration:Lower recharge to 10 seconds

Purifying Finale / Finale of Restoration: Lower Duration closer to around 20 seconds at higher attributes. Reduce Recharge to 6 seconds (so it can effect more people, potentially)

Song of Power: Functional change 5en 1ct 4rc "For 2 seconds, Song of Power does nothing. When song of power ends, Allies In the Area are healed for 10..30...35 health

ALL MOTIVATION CHANTS have an AoE of In the Area, with healing increased to compensate.

Blegh, these are all off the top of my head really. TL

R is to lower the AoE of chants and up their effect (healing) and lower recharge to boot, so that they are more useful, but might actually have to be aware of where exactly they are on the field to effect the frontline. Give them more single target heal ability without it being -too- overpowered, with Signet of Synergy actually living up to it's name (literally) and Song of Power changed to an odd chant that functions like Patient Spirit, but with a crappier effect simply to synergize better with the "finale" skills.

The other two elite skills are another thing. TPIY I like because with the changes, it'd definitely synergize more with the 'Finale' skills. "It's Just a Flesh Wound." has a good effect, but I'd switch out the IMS for something different that potentially synergizes with something else.

On the initial subject, though, your "they're never going to change it so just get rid of it" doesn't really add up, due to the fact that it would actually take them more effort, probably, to get rid of it than to change it.